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Episode Summary

You've heard that change starts from within.

Have you ever stopped to consider how deep that "within" really goes?

You'll find out on this week's episode of the Unshakable Habits podcast with guest Jodee Gibson.

Jodee is a human behavior expert, coach, and author of "Healing Your Map."

Jodee shares you can change your identity - it's not set in stone. This is because your internal "filters" influence your actions more than the world around you.

We also look at why transformation stories tug at your heartstrings. And how your self-perception is a valuable clue to unlocking your hidden potential.

The conversation doesn't stop at understanding; it extends to healing. We touch upon triggers, trauma, and how understanding them can lead you to the path of recovery.

This jam-packed episode has plenty of insights into healing, transformation, and finding courage to take the first steps towards your goals. Tune in for what promises to be an exciting exploration of the mind and self.

Key Topics

  • How does the environment we grow up in influence our values and beliefs?
  • Why do your internal "filters" influence your life more than the world around you?
  • In what ways does our childhood lens or map impact our decision-making as adults?
  • You have the power to change your identity - it's not set in stone.
  • Why do transformation stories tug at your heartstrings?
  • How can self-perception be a valuable clue to unlocking your hidden potential?
  • How do values shape our decision-making skills and priorities in life?
  • Why is it important to understand and align with our own values?
  • What role do triggers play in our emotional reactions, and how can we dismantle their power?
  • Why is it important to recognize and unpack our own stories and patterns?
  • What is the significance of using the five words "how, what, when, who, and where" to uncover information and patterns?

Quotes We Loved

  • "Our identity is not fixed but an editable thing." - Jodee Gibson
  • "It doesn't matter where you started, what matters is what you're willing to learn in order to get to the next page." - Jodee Gibson
  • "We all love a good transformation story. So why is it that so many of us, despite loving these stories, feel like it's different for us?" - Jodee Gibson
  • "Our childhood coping mechanisms often follow us into adulthood and how dismantling these patterns is simpler than one might think." - Jodee Gibson
  • "Our childhood coping mechanisms often follow us into adulthood and dismantling these patterns is simpler than one might think." - Jodee Gibson
  • "We can examine our values, both positive and negative, to gain awareness of how we can use them to our advantage." - Jodee Gibson

Guest Bio & Links

Jodee Gibson, PCC is an expert on transformational healing in behavioral medicine. As a professional coach and speaker, she has created massive change and generated millions of dollars for her clients including the National Institute of Health, the International Coaching Federation, the University of Michigan, and Keller Williams Realty (creating award-winning cultures). Jodee helps leaders create deep awareness around the lens that they are leading others through, which is also eloquently articulated in her award-winning book, Healing Your Map, a guide to understanding discernment, trauma, and human behavior (encompassing developmental trauma). 

Her holistic approach is deeply layered in developmental psychology, neuro-linguistic programming (NLP), neuroscience, consciousness, trauma, intention, levels of energy, professional coaching, and the law of vibration. This unconventional approach emerges from pairing her often tumultuous experiential education with her extensive formal education. The intersection she creates with these is beyond fascinating. Jodee resides in Oakland County, Michigan. She coaches and speaks worldwide. 

Although she is considered an expert in this field, she will forever remain a student of this work.

This is a glimpse of her educational path -

  • PhD in Human Development - student
  • Master's Degree in Organizational Leadership
  • Licensed NLP Trainer • The Society of NLP
  • Licensed NLP Master Practitioner • The Society of NLP
  • Certified Professional Coach • Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching (iPEC)
  • Professional Certified Coach • International Coaching Federation (ICF)
  • Certified Trauma & Resilience Practitioner • Starr Commonwealth
  • Trauma-Certified Practitioner • HeartMath
  • ICF Michigan Executive Board Member (2018-2022)
  • Former ICF Michigan President 2022
  • Compassionate Inquiry student - Dr. Gabor Maté

Read Transcript

Stephen Box: [00:00:00] Have you ever tried to make a change in your life but just couldn't seem to get outta your own way or found that everything just seemed to conspire against you? Oh, if so, welcome to the Unshakable Habits podcast, where we help men to prioritize their physical and mental wellbeing. I'm your host, national Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach, Stephen Vach.

And today we're gonna be talking about this topic. But before I jump into that, before we get you to the interview, I want to take a minute to have you think about this. Have you ever considered where your thoughts come from, the beliefs that you have, your perception of the world, even the way that you react to things that happen to and around you?

It's easy for us to say, well, that's just who I am, [00:01:00] how I've always been my entire life. But that insinuates that we're stuck being that person, that that is what we were faded to be, and that we have no opportunity to ever become something else. Now, of course we know that's not true, but it can feel that way sometimes.

The reality is, in order to make these changes, in order to get our lives to look the way we want them to look, a very important piece of that is starting to understand why we think the way we are now. Right? It's, you wouldn't put an address into a G P S without knowing where you are right now, because otherwise the GPS can't help you get where you wanna go, or it has to know where you are now.

And in order to make changes in your own life, you also have to have a understanding of where you are now. And that's why this week I have a behavior [00:02:00] specialist, Jodee Gibson, who's going to sit down with me and her and I had a great conversation about this topic. She actually recently wrote a book called Healing Your Map.

And what it does is it looks at this idea, the yes, your external environment, the way that you were raised, the environment that you grew up in, the the city, the, the people, the house, all those things have an impact on you. But. It's not really about the external factors, it's actually about what happens inside of your head as you take in those experiences.

So Jodee's really gonna help break down the way that our brains work, the way that we process information and help you start to understand why all of those external factors in your life had the internal impact on you that they did, and how you can use that same information to start making the [00:03:00] changes that you want to make.

So hope you guys are looking forward to that today, and we'll be back with that interview here in just one minute.

Intro / Outro: Are you ready to break free from your old habits and create a better life for yourself and those around you? If so, welcome to Unshakable Habits, the podcast dedicated to helping men be better husbands, fathers, and leaders by prioritizing their physical and mental wellbeing. Each week we'll look at health from a 360 degree perspective with inspiring stories and practical strategies for building Unshakable habits that'll transform your life.

Join Stephen Box, a board certified health and wellness coach, and let's change the world together one habit at a time.

Stephen Box: And with [00:04:00] that, I'm going to go ahead and bring Jodee in here and allow her to introduce

Jodee Gibson: herself. Hi, friend. Thank you so much for the warm welcome and for inviting me in to jam with your people. I think this is awesome. Yeah, looking forward to it. Thank you. A little bit about myself. Um, my name is Jodee Gibson and I'm a human behavior expert and master coach.

I'm also an author of a book that was just recently released called Healing Your Map. And my, I feel like my dream or my role or my gift in this world is really teaching people how their brain works, teaching people how the world around them creates the reality that they live in. But that, that, that reality is really driven by what's happening internally versus externally.

And so I think it's this, um, hybrid space that a lot of people get lost in and or often lean into, um, a Western approach to understand. And so I feel like the lens that I bring is more of a lived experience [00:05:00] on top of a very formalized education outside of that Western approach. So I share that in saying I, my approach has been built through developmental psychology, neuroscience, neurolinguistic programming, professional coaching, um, studying intention, the law of attraction, the law of vibration, trauma, and all things alike to get to the idea that who we are as human beings is dependent upon the environment that we've grown up in and the culture that we've been, um, exposed to, and the language that has, I wanna say, the language that has developed us and the language that we've created from that space.

And so it's a lot about self-talk and the way that we talk to ourself and the way that we hear other people when they speak to us. So I feel like that was like a lot in one, but that truly is a nutshell of who I am as a human being.

Stephen Box: Yeah. I I I love that you, that you kind of pointed out there that this little small detail, right?

I wanna make sure [00:06:00] people didn't miss it. It's not about, you know, that these things happening around you aren't real. Right. Because you, you said people are influenced by their environment, right? Yeah. So when you look a certain way, when you have certain beliefs, when you know you're born in a certain area, whatever, those things do have real life consequences on the person that you become.

Yes, absolutely. But, but I know the message you really want to deliver today is, although that identity is forced through those things, that doesn't have to be the identity that you carry with you through life. It doesn't have to prevent you from living out your dreams.

Jodee Gibson: Correct? Absolutely. And, and I always say like, it doesn't matter where you started, like what matters is what you're willing to learn in order to get to the next page or in order to heal or in order to.

Come to the other side of whatever space it is that you feel like you [00:07:00] are stuck in. Right? I think a lot of times people say, well, I'm stuck, or This is just who I am. And I always say like, of course this is who you are. Like this is who you've become over time. Versus stepping back and saying, Hey, this is who I want to be, and so I'm here to share in that space that like who we become and who we are is an editable thing.

It's not a permanent, like, Hey, I grew up in this kind of an area, so this is who I permanently am. Or Hey, I did have this. I did have access to these things as a kid, or I didn't, and now I'm gonna allow that to dictate how I move forward. And so that's why I'm here to share. Like all of that is taken in context, but it's all editable too.

Yeah. Like and I think that's the gift is understanding like those aren't permanent things.

Stephen Box: Yeah. I think it's so interesting when you see almost every major Hollywood movie. Has some kind of transformation, right? They, they all sit around this idea that [00:08:00] the character is one way, but they become another, right?

So whether that's that they're the, the evil person or the bad person who, you know, has their heart changed and they become good, or whether they're the the shy, timid person who ultimately becomes the hero, right? We all love a good transformation story. So why is it that so many of us, despite loving these stories and spending billions of dollars to go see movies that tell this story over and over, what is it that makes us feel like it's different for us?

Jodee Gibson: I think that's a great question, and I feel like I'm gonna try and really simplify it because there's a really surface level and then there's this really in-depth, amazing, beautiful, deep answer. Starting at the surface level, I think it's about understanding. We, we view other people and we view the world outside of us as [00:09:00] better, or we view the world as this sugarcoated, greener grass, the bigger muscles, taller, stronger, more mon, whatever it is, right?

It's rare that we view ourselves as whole. And so starting at that first thing, if we're constantly looking outside of ourselves as if we aren't enough, that's our first clue, right? To say, okay, hang on. Let me go inside and, and, and, uh, dig deep to figure out what's creating my perspective on the person I see in the mirror, right?

And so from that space, I think a lot of times those transformational or Victoria's stories are so like magic to us and they move us because I think we all at some level want that transformation. We all can see. We all can see our own potential, and we all can see, like, even if we just visualize like, man, if I could do this and I could do this, and we we're all constantly dream building, right?[00:10:00]

But the, the, the, the crazy part about it is rarely do we take the steps and, and they're not that big of steps, right? Steps. Rarely do we take the steps that bring us towards that vision of us. Instead we stay in our childhood programming and we stay inside the person we've always been. And then we expect, either we expect to wake up one day as that person, or we've already built a belief that says, Hey, I'll never get there.

Like, that's just like, that's not even doable. Yeah. Right. And I'm, I'm here to share like, it's one, it's, it's oftentimes one tiny little thing you can change, right? So I, I share that in saying, I, I often share this an analogy of if I was leaving from Malibu and I, my dream was to sail to Hawaii. I'd have to chart out the whole thing and figure out how long would it take me to sail from A to B.

Right. And I would then probably create a crew. I would get a, a group of people. I would shop, I would have all the [00:11:00] resources that I needed. And I would say, okay, it's gonna take me about three weeks to sail there. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna buy resources that will probably last me maybe three and a half, just in case, maybe four.

Right. But I share this analogy in saying, when I calculated how, how it, how long it was gonna take me to get there, if my map was just one degree off, I would never even hit the island. Yeah. Right. Well, one degree off course, and I'm gonna end up with a completely different outcome and I'm gonna end up in a whole world of hurt because I only had resources for X number of days and now I'm out in the sea and I'm completely lost.

And it was just one degree, but it was one degree from the beginning. Yeah. It's not share that and saying, Changing just one degree of something completely changes the outcome. And so I think a lot of times people go, oh, well I would have to have like a whole nother degree to have that job. Or I would have to move to like a whole different part of town to be able [00:12:00] to access that resource.

Or I would have to work out, you know, five days a week, three hours a day in order to achieve that physical performance. Or I, right. They think that they have to like start over. And I'm just saying things are much simpler oftentimes than we make them be. And yeah. I'm circling back. One more thing to tie a bow on that is, the reason why we do that is because we're still operating in our childhood programming.

So we have that, that childhood part of us that trying to figure out this adult equation with our little kid and, and I'm, I don't wanna say little kid, but like with our, our normalized approach to things. Yeah.

Stephen Box: So kind of taking that same analogy and, and maybe flipping it a little bit, cause this is something I hear from a lot of people.

Is they're worried that they're going to be the person who sets the course for one degree off, and they're gonna end up in a totally wrong place. Right. That, that they kind of go to that doom scenario.

Jodee Gibson: Sure. [00:13:00] Yeah. And I, I would love to speak to that and, and tell you how and why that happens. Right? So I share this in saying, imagine that we all have, we all have limiting beliefs.

Mm-hmm. Right? Think back to whether it's the, I'm not good at math, or I'm bad with science, I'm bad at directions. I'm like, whatever it is, we all have this crazy limiting belief. And so if your belief is, I'm not gonna make it to that island, right? Or I'm gonna screw up this map, my question is, I want you to go back for any minute listening.

I want you to pause for a second, and I want you to take a moment and realize how old were you when that limiting belief dropped into your map? How old were you when that limiting belief became real for you? So if it's, I'm not good at public speaking, I'm bad at math. Were you eight? Were you 10? Maybe were you 12?

Maybe you were four. I don't know how old you are. Yeah. But odds are high. It was somewhere [00:14:00] between the window of four years old and 12 years old when that limiting belief came into your life. And if we're gonna take the high end and call it 12 years old, that 12 year old belief is now running your adult life.

And I share that saying, you're running around trying to make adult-like decisions, right? And where else in your life are you letting a 12 year old make a decision for you? Yeah. And so it's about understanding that belief that you have is what's holding you back, not your ability to get there, but simply the belief that you can't.

And so when we get really clear on. What's building my internal approach mm-hmm. That's allowing me to experience my external world. It, it's, I think a lot of times people wanna blame the external part of it, right? Where it's like, no, let's go inside, let's figure out what internal programming is creating this belief and let's dismantle it.

Yeah.

Stephen Box: Yeah. I talk a [00:15:00] lot about, you know, this idea of connected health, right? Where it's, you have your physical health, you have your mental health, your emotional, your relationships, you know, environment, all those things, right? And I think one thing that kind of takes a lot of guys by surprise when I, when I share this with them, is I'm like, mental health really, from my definition is just your thoughts and beliefs and emotional health is your internal or external reaction to those thoughts and beliefs.

And, and that's kind of what you're hitting on here is your. Experience of things happening to you today are not necessarily reality. They're being run through the filter of those long-term beliefs. Absolutely.

Jodee Gibson: A a thousand percent. That's truly what I just wrote a book on is exactly that, is understanding how to heal that lens, right?

How to heal you. You know, my [00:16:00] theory about the map, and so it's like if, if we have this map that's covering our eyes and this map has collected all of the, the data that we use for discernment, right? This is all the data that we use to make decisions, and this data was collected before we were 12. How, like, how effective is our decision making in that space?

And I'm not saying that we're not aware of or can't make decisions. I'm saying when it comes to limiting beliefs and when it comes to, I love that you hit the nail on the head. I think oftentimes people say, Well, so-and-so, you know, makes me angry or so-and-so, makes me so mad. Or I, and they, they blame their emotional response on another person without recognizing, hang on a second, I actually, because we've normalized this process, right?

Instead of saying, I thought this thing and I took this information in from my world, right? So I take some information in, I create a thought. That thought creates my emotional response, that thought [00:17:00] engages, right? My energy. And I either choose to be enraged about it or I choose to be happy about it, or I choose to be curious about it, or I choose to judge it.

Whatever it is, it's a choice that I'm unconsciously making. And then from that choice, I'm experiencing the output of that emotional expression. Yeah. And so I think a lot of times people think that emotional expression is someone else's fault. Without ever recognizing No, that emotional expression is directly related to the storyline that you're living inside and the story that you keep telling yourself.

Yep. And until you interrupt the story, you're gonna keep having the same thought and the same emotion, and the same outcome. Yeah. It's

Stephen Box: like, even if that person is intentionally pushing your buttons, even if their goal is to make you mad, it's still your decision Mad.

Jodee Gibson: Yes. And, and I al, I'm, I'm laughing only because I always say to people, what would happen if the button wasn't [00:18:00] there?

Yeah. Right. Like, like whose button is it? If someone's pushing your button, the button's yours, figure out where it came from and dismantle it or remove it. Like, this person can't push your button if there's no button for them to push. Yeah. But, you know, allowing other people to, um, Engage us is a choice.

And I think until we realize, hang on a second, this button's like from fifth grade or this button's from my ex, or this button's from my sibling that used to taunt me. Like whatever it is, when you recognize the button is yours and you learn how to dismantle it, that person no longer phases you cuz there's nothing for them to engage with.

Stephen Box: Yeah. Yeah. So do you have like either a personal story or maybe like a client, uh, story that you might be able to share that kind of illustrates this,

Jodee Gibson: that illustrates the button? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I can share it in a general sense of the [00:19:00] idea of understanding like when we're triggered, right?

If we're, I, I do have a funny story. I just thought about this one. It's one of my favorites. But, um, to this day, like my, my dad still, um, do you see my neurology is already like rattled trying to tell the story. So this will al also share my age on this, but there's something about the theme song from the show.

Do you remember the old TV show? I don't know how old you are, the old TV show Mash, right? Mm-hmm. I, I don't, there was something, I have figured it out now, but as soon as I heard the music, I would be like, oh my God, shut it off. Make it stop. I, my neurology just goes haywire. Cause I'm like, what? Like I can't do this, right?

Like, I can't function when I hear it. And what I realized was when I was a kid, I think that show used to come on at seven 30, I don't know, maybe eight o'clock. This is like early eighties, right? When that show came on, it was my bedtime and I was the youngest of three. And so I would always be laying in my bed knowing that my siblings [00:20:00] were awake, my parents were awake, they were probably having fun in the living room or doing whatever.

And here I was in bed by myself not wanting to be there. And all I can hear is this music playing. And I, I was probably really fired up and really angry. And it's funny, to this day when I hear it, I'm like, make it stop. Yeah. And so it's about understanding. A lot of times people are triggered, right?

They're, they're like, oh, that's triggering. Or Don't say that word cuz it triggers me and whatever. Not recognizing like in order for a trigger to fire, there has to first be a loaded weapon. Yeah. And so we have to realize like, what loaded our weapon and how responsible are we willing to be to dismantle that so that no one, even if the trigger is engaged, it doesn't, it doesn't, it's like a misfire cuz it's, there's an, it's an empty weapon.

There's nothing, right. There's, there's nothing that's gonna come out because there's nothing in there to engage. And so I think it's about recognizing buttons work the same way. Like the only way I can be triggered is if [00:21:00] I haven't unpacked my story. Yeah. And, and the only way I can be, you know, engaged by a button is if I allow it to be there.

Yeah.

Stephen Box: So I, I love this, this conversation and, and kind of where my brain is going is obviously there, there's different levels of, of trauma, right? I mean, for some things, somebody right. Might really need to go seek professional help. So not just saying that you can just kind of fix all this on your own, but a lot of the triggers that we do have are things like what you talked about, like a theme song.

And you know, it's just something that you have this kind of flashback to being a little kid in the bed by yourself, being mad. And so the first emotion that you ever attached to that trigger was anger. And so that's the natural emotion that comes out when you hear it. Yeah. Where people get stuck is they're, they're like still just [00:22:00] getting mad about that song 20, 30 years later, whatever.

Right. Well, that's one of those I can choose how to react to the song now.

Jodee Gibson: Well, yeah. And it's, it, it's too, I feel like there's so many things to share right here. It's not that they can choose their reaction, cuz their reaction is always gonna be that until they create awareness around the root cause of what causes that emotional reaction.

Yeah. That's the first thing. The second thing is, I feel like we jumped right over when you said, um, if somebody has trauma and needs professional help, they could go, I'm here to say that um, the people that we believe are trained in trauma are not. So psychologists, psychiatrists, counselor, therapist, psychotherapist, all these people are not trained in trauma.

They're trained in talk therapy, they're trained in the D S M. They're trained in diagnosing and potentially medicating trauma. They're not trained in trauma. And so I think understanding two things too, like for me, my definition of trauma is anything that takes you outside of your coherent state. [00:23:00] So anything that throws me into survival mode, whether it's this gigantic, right?

It doesn't have to be that something inappropriate happened or that your parents got a divorce or. That some, you know, something like there was an accident. It can be something that large and it can also be something that consistently happened that you've normalized over time that doesn't allow you to find that level of safety inside yourself.

Yeah. And so I say anything that takes you outside of your coherent state and throws you into fight or flight and prolongs or consistently shows up in that manner is trauma. And so it's understanding when we normalize, I'm, I'm sharing this one more thing and then I'll pass you the mic back. But what happens when we don't recognize those spaces is when we experience trauma, we find a solution, right?

We find a solution that keeps us safe in that moment. And so if that, if that solution is to ignore it or to, um, suppress it or to dismiss it or to mask it or [00:24:00] whatever it is that childhood and childlike. Coping mechanism that we've created to handle the trauma in that moment is still the coping mechanism that we're using as an adult.

And then still un until we gain awareness around that, that pattern, the pattern will just keep repeating. And it goes back to what we were sharing earlier around. We have, we've normalized our response to people, which is why as a child we might say, I don't wanna go in there, it's scary, or I don't wanna talk to that person cuz it, it rattles my nerves.

Right now as an adult, we still do that. We avoid things because we're like, that's scary, or I don't wanna talk about that because Right. My ability to discern what happened isn't really flexible right now. And so that's why I'm saying like, we keep shifting into these childhood patterns as adults, but we don't, they don't stand out for us because we've normalized them and we just say, that's just who I am.

Stephen Box: Yeah. [00:25:00] That's just who I am is a, uh, is a go-to phrase, something for people in situations for

Jodee Gibson: sure. And I always say, yeah, of course that's who you are, of course. But is that who you really wanna be? Yeah. And if it's not, then like, let's just get curious inside this response, figure out how it was built and start dismantling it.

And it's way easier than you think.

Stephen Box: Yeah. So, so kind of if you could walk us through like what does it even look like to get started on this process? I mean, I know the entire process we would not even have time to probably scrape into in this conversation, but if somebody's just wanting to know like, how does this, how do we even get started with this?

What does that look

Jodee Gibson: like? Yeah. And can I take a second and explain, I can do a 32nd overview on my concept on the map, cuz it would be helpful to use that analogy if it's okay. Definitely would be helpful. Yeah. Perfect. So I have this idea that the moment that you are conceived, you're given a blank map.

So you have a map. [00:26:00] I have a map. Everybody listening has a map. Our kids, our spouses, our neighbors, our friends, everybody on the planet has their very own map, right? And your map collects every life experience you've ever had. And so it collects every sound, every color, every flavor, every success, every failure, every relationship, every tone of voice, every single thing you've ever experienced is collected on your map, right?

And your map then becomes the lens through which you experience the world, right? Which is why we can all witness something happen, and we'll have multiple recollections of what happened because we saw it through so many different lenses. So I might say, oh, it was really loud and it, it was kind of aggressive and people seemed frightened where somebody else might go.

It wasn't really that loud. I didn't think it was a big deal where somebody else might say, oh my gosh, why didn't we call the police? Right. And so I share that in saying it's not right or wrong, like people's opinions and, and experiences aren't right or wrong. They're just simply different depending upon what was previously [00:27:00] collected and processed on their map.

Yeah. So I share that all in saying the way that we heal is to first understand this map is what's DIC dictating our life. Yeah. And so if we wanna start having a different outcome and we wanna start viewing things differently, we first have to understand how we view them now. Right. Yeah. So I just had a really cool, um, conversation in the d e I space.

We were talking about diversity and the gentleman was talking about like, we can talk about diversity all day long. Mm-hmm. But until we literally uncover what it is that's currently happening, Then it's really challenging to say, this is just, if I just say, Hey, I wanna paint this room, I feel like I'm shifting a little.

But if I say, Hey, I wanna paint this room a different color, I might first wanna say, Hey, this room is currently this size and this space and the walls are white, and so I'm gonna need to put a couple different layers on it to take it to this other place. Yeah. But until we identify where we are, [00:28:00] it's oftentimes challenging to say, this is where we wanna go.

Because to me, I don't wanna say to measure that success, but to understand how to get from A to B. Right. We first have to start where we are. Yeah. And, and, and I share that saying, so you're like, what's the first step in the process? The first step in the process is creating awareness around where we currently are.

So if I say, uh, I wanna be happy, right? Mm-hmm. And we didn't, and we, we just said, okay, cool. Let's go there. No time out. Let's first say, how do you know that you're unhappy? What is it around you internally and externally that's creating awareness for you? That you are deciding that you're, that you're not happy with that?

Yeah. And so when we can articulate that and kind of jot down what's not working, we can then say, okay, how did this, like how does the pattern keep happening that this outcome keeps, keeps kicking out? Right? Like, what's the recipe that we keep running that keeps kicking out this same outcome? And usually in understanding and [00:29:00] unpacking that space, we're like, oh my gosh, here's a pattern.

Yeah. There's one belief that's leading all these things. And so when we do that process and we find that and isolate that one belief and kind of remove it, the The sequence hears itself. Yeah. Right. Versus not identifying that space and just saying, oh, happiness is over there and let me go do a whole bunch of things that are gonna put me over there, still running this old sequence.

And so that's where I'm sharing like as soon as you pull the one thing out, it's almost like that one scene that unravels every what was binding everything together. Yeah.

Stephen Box: And, and I love this because I actually, when we did our pre-interview and we talked about some of these things, I actually kind of had this realization myself where one of the things that we often teach people to do is before they start setting goals, before they start deciding on action plans, is to get really clear on their values, right?

What's actually [00:30:00] important? And after our conversation, the realization I had was, there's another layer there, which is not just what are my values, but why are those things actually important to me? Like what is it about those that stand out?

Jodee Gibson: Yeah, I feel like you were like in my office earlier cause I just shot a little video on exactly that.

This, and it was, it was twofold saying, yes, our values are one of the biggest key players in our decision making skills as humans. Mm-hmm. So if I value, um, if I value integrity, I'm doing everything and double checking and making sure it's in alignment with who I am. Where if I'm working with somebody and their top value is, um, security, they might not value integrity.

Or if they're, if your top, um, value is freedom, right? They don't care about integrity or any of those things. And so I think it's about understanding [00:31:00] when we know what our value is, not only are we clearer on who we are, we also have an understanding that that's what makes us all different, is that we're not all going into this with the same value.

We don't all value the same thing, which is what creates that flexibility in those spaces. I think the second part of that is understanding, and I always say like environment is one of the things that's so often overlooked. Your environment and the environment that you were created in has a direct relation to the things that you value.

Yeah, and I'm just gonna share some really high level overview, like these are not set in stone. I'm sharing these as an example. If you grew up in a volatile environment mm-hmm. You probably value safety. Yeah. You, you probably value personal security. If you grew up in a high wealth environment, you probably value things much differently.

Right. Then you might value education, you might value finances, [00:32:00] you might value material things. Mm-hmm. If you grew up in an environment where everybody was kind of in survival mode, you might value community because it was everyone's contribution that kept things going. And so it's understanding like, Our environment creates our values and our values drive our decision making skills.

And if you're functioning in a world where you're wondering why you can't find alignment either with other people or in certain situations, take a glance at what your values are. And there's actually an excerpt in the, or sorry, there's a, a whole space in the book about how to figure out what your values are.

That's really powerful because un like you might right now say, oh my, I value this, this, and this. And then you do the work, um, the, uh, worksheet in the book and you're like, wow. Like I thought these are my values, but really, truly, these are my values. And when you have that level of clarity, you're like, that makes so much sense.

Cuz I keep trying to focus on this one thing, but my energy keeps taking me a different way. [00:33:00] Yeah. It's because you believe that this is your focus, but your values are

taking

Stephen Box: you left. Yeah. You hit on a couple things that, that, that I, I just wanna touch on here. So, so first of all, and, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, okay, sure.

But this is kind of where my understanding is right now. So we have these things that have happened to us in our past that have created these values, but it's possible for two, for two people to have the same value for two totally different reasons. Yes. So for example, integrity, you, you mentioned maybe you had someone in your life who was full of integrity.

They always did what they said. They always kept their word. And that person had a huge influence on you. And that's why integrity's important to you because that person had that positive influence. Somebody else might also value integrity, but it might be because they were lied to, they were cheated, they, you know, whatever.

And therefore, for them, integrity became a huge [00:34:00] thing. Now those two different perspectives shift the way you view integrity. Your view of it being positive influences your actions. I'm going to do things that are, you know, high integrity because that's what I believe is the right thing to do. That other person, they might hold themselves to higher, you know, integrity standards, but they're also more likely to blame other people when they don't feel like they're living out those same values.

So one is internally, one is externally focused. Yeah,

Jodee Gibson: I was gonna say yes and no. And I think that yes, people are a, people are a result, oh, I should like coin this. I'm like, people are a result of the level of awareness they have around their environment. Yeah. You feel like I have to circle back and write that one down, but Yes.

And so understanding is your, like, are your values as a positive result of what you experienced as a [00:35:00] kid or a negative? And I can share with you like one of my, my top value is environment and I call it vibration or environment or energy, like understanding the energy around me and understanding. What I'm offering.

I grew up in a really frenetic environment where everything was always chaos and we're late and we gotta go here, we gotta go there. And I, I played like one sport, but I played it way too much. Like I was a figure skater, but I skated every single day and for too many hours a day. And like, my schoolwork wouldn't be done or I forgot to pack my lunch, or I didn't put this book back in my bag, or I forgot my skates, or like, whatever it was, there was no calm.

Like, Hey, let's find our center. And so for me, I feel like that level of energy is, is what leads my life. Cuz I wanna go into everything with this level of intention that is about certainty. It's about, I'm here right now, I'm just here, I'm not checking my phone, I'm not looking at other things. I'm not doing other, I'm not multitasking, like answering an email while I'm [00:36:00] talking to you.

Like I, I have built my life around being really like, really, really slowed down so that I can be really succinct and really on point. So the next thing I do, right? So I don't have to come back and redo things and I don't have to project an energy of, um, crazy frenetic, loose, loose ends running from, you know, running off steam versus saying, no, I'm gonna put out this, I almost wanna say like, this level of authority, I'm gonna put out this really clean, clear level of energy.

And what I also know about that is whatever I'm putting out is what I'm inviting back. Mm-hmm. And so if I'm frenetic, I'm inviting frenetic energy back. Yeah. If I'm a victim, I'm inviting things that put me in a victim position. If I'm angry, I'm gonna find fault in everything. But if I'm really calm and open and curious, I'm gonna find things that align with that energy.

Yeah. I think it's really powerful to understand what you're [00:37:00] knitting. Right? I think a lot of times people just see the external and they're like, oh, all these things are wrong. Where it's like, okay, what lens are you viewing them through? Yeah. What part of your life is that? Like what lens are you seeing it through?

Yeah.

Stephen Box: Yeah, so, so you're saying that even if where you kind of got this value from, even if it was from a place of negativity, you can still create that awareness around it and then kind of decide how you want to react to it. So it doesn't necessarily have to be that you view it externally, negatively, or that you use it against other people.

Once you have the awareness, you can then decide how you want to actually utilize it. So like for you

Jodee Gibson: internally? Yeah. And, and it turns back to kind of what we were sharing earlier about like, it doesn't matter where you started, what matters is what you're willing to learn and what you're willing to create awareness around in order to heal or in order to get the outcome [00:38:00] that you want.

So if I say, oh, well I grew up in all this chaos and so, right. I might not even be aware of the fact that I grew up in chaos. I might just still be really chaotic and really mad and projecting and blaming and pointing out there, right. It's their fault and I'm right if I've normalized that, but I'm looking for peace.

I'm looking for other people to supply peace to me, even though I can't find my own internal, right. And so I think it's about understanding first what's happening in here that's creating my external world.

Stephen Box: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can give kind of an example from my, my personal life just to kind of help people really kind of see this, you know, when I was seven years old, we actually moved, I was born in Oklahoma and we moved to Florida.

And so. I went from being a kid who was, you know, making honor roll and I don't know if I was like really [00:39:00] one of the popular kids or not, but I felt like I fit in anyways, right? And now all of a sudden I go to a new place and I was always really short from my age. And because of that my, my weight kind of fluctuated.

So there'd be times where I was really chubby. There'd be times where I was skinny, depending on if I had a gross spurt. And I was the kid with a funny accent. So it was like the triple threat of like, you're going to get picked on, right? So I got picked on a lot once we moved, and that lasted for several years into middle school.

And then one day we were in the lunchroom and people would do, well, we called them clown contests, so they're like, you, your mama jokes, things like that. And I discovered I had this talent to use these insults and get people to laugh. It became a defense mechanism for me, and without even realizing it, because I had kind of normalized this process, [00:40:00] I carried this all the way into college early into my career, where I always felt like I needed to like put other people down where I needed to defend myself, where I took things that people would say or do as slights, even if they weren't meant that way.

And for years I did that and it held me back in my career. It held me back in a lot of different areas, and I honestly don't even remember what it was that made me realize it, but at some point I became aware of, and I think it really was just as I started getting into coaching and really learning to become a better coach, I think some of it didn't necessarily come to full awareness right then, but I think I started to kind of see some of the signs and as I started changing and becoming a better coach, I naturally kind of came out of that.

Right. So I think that's a, a perfect example. Really what you're talking about here is that I was in this situation that I had really no control over. And at the time [00:41:00] I was too young to fully have the awareness and make the decision about how I wanted to respond. And I was in survival mode and it influenced me into, well into my adulthood.

And it really was affecting me in negative ways. And then it took something kind of coming along and bumping me off track for me to be able to stop and look at it.

Jodee Gibson: Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you were saying like you used humor as a, um, a tool, right? To break that space. But there was something that eventually created awareness for you where you were like, hang on a second, this isn't who I wanna be.

Like, yeah. Or the threat disappeared, right? And so I think maybe the awareness came because the threat disappeared and you were like, okay, wait, I don't have to defend myself anymore. Or something. Something changed in you where that belief dissipated. Yeah. And so you never, you no longer had to defend what wasn't there.

Yeah. Right. And so I think that's a really cool anal, like that's a really cool story. I was gonna [00:42:00] say analogy, but that's a really cool story that, that shows people, like these aren't permanent spaces. And then until you, until you decide to believe something different, you, you'll stay in that same space.

But as soon as you are willing to get curious and say, Hey, what is it about this thing that keeps repeating? Yeah. Like, why do I keep dating this same girl? Same guy. Right. If it was for me, why do I keep dating the same guy? He just has a different name. Yeah. If it's like guy, it's like, why do you keep dating the same girl?

She just has a different name. Yeah. But you keep attracting the same energy, the same patterns, the same habits, and then you get angry that you keep attracting that person. But when there's a pattern there, there has to be a pattern in you. But you've normalized it. And so it's about getting really curious around, okay, what is it that's drawing this into my world?

Yeah. And then really allowing yourself to unpack that space or hiring a coach that will help you unpack that space.

Stephen Box: Yeah. There, there's a reason why every [00:43:00] good relationship coach in the entire world, the first thing they're gonna tell you when you come outta a relationship is to focus on yourself first.

Right? Fix your own crap. Because it's not, it's not just that you know, the other person was doing things, it doesn't mean that they weren't doing things, but you need to fix what's inside of you. And I think for a lot of people where they struggle so much with this is that they've never had something bumped them off course.

Right. And like I said, I don't even remember for me what that was, but clearly something bumped me off course and made me shift my perspective. Yeah. Until we get that right. And, and the thing is that someone's listening to this right now and they're going, I'm not happy with where I am. I don't know exactly what it is.

I don't know what that thing is that's bothering me so much. I don't know why I'm this way. All I know is I'm not happy and I'm tired of living this way. [00:44:00] That's the person that right now, this, this interview might be your bump. It's, it is that first awareness that something has to change. So if someone's finding themselves in that position right now, I mean, obviously the, the obvious recommendation here is to go pick, pick up your book, right?

Healing your map. But outside of that, like what is the next step for that person if they're now having that awareness of something has to change, but I'm not sure what it is yet.

Jodee Gibson: I think, I think the thing is to just get really curious, right? And I think it's about getting curious and allowing yourself to ask the questions.

And I'll give you guys five words. I always say like, these are the five words that change everything. But when you start to understand like how words work and you start to understand, this is how we unlock things. This is in my book, I think it's page 1 24. Um, but there's five different words that unlock things for you.

The words are [00:45:00] how, what, when, who, and where. And I know this sounds crazy, this may be the first time you've ever heard this, but I jam on this all the time. But how reveals process. So if you ask yourself, how, how do I keep ending up here? It's gonna reveal to you the process that you're taking to get there.

If you say, what is it about this situation? What reveals content? So what is gonna unpack the content behind the tools that are involved in this pattern? If you say when, when reveals time recognition. So you might say, when is the first time I experienced this pattern? It might take you back to, man, I was four years old.

Or I was six years old. But when you get really curious around when, right? Yeah. The, the fourth one is who, so who reveals resources? So you might say, who else do I know that has the same pattern? Mm-hmm. Who do I know that's connected to this pattern? Who do I know that can help me? Or who, who is it around me?

That, that, when, when, like, who is it around me that engages this pattern? [00:46:00] Cuz that might give you a clue as to where the, the roots to the, the pattern are. And the last one is where, so where reveals location. So you might say something like, where do I feel this in my body? Or like, where does this show up the most in my life?

Does it show up in relationships? Does it show up at work? Does it show up? Um, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically? Right? Like, like, wh where's the first place I can put my finger on that? I experienced this. But when you use those five questions, it unpacks this all, like all these multi-layered approaches instead of, I think sometimes we use the other word that I don't like to use, which is why sometimes we say, why does this keep happening to me?

Or why do I always end up with this person? Or why do I never get the raise? Or why can't I find a consistent gym routine? Or whatever your why is, right? Yeah. But when we stay away from why, right? And we stay instead in these other five questions, you can ask the same exact question five different ways and get a myriad of information from just using [00:47:00] those different words.

Yeah. And so that it's, and, and it's in asking questions that we find, we find our ability to search. Right. And I, I share that in saying it's easier for someone to ask us a question and let us dig for our own answer than it is for them to say, here's what I think it looks like. Right? Yeah. Because when somebody.

Slathering their advice on us. It's simply what our perspective looks like through their map. Yeah. Which is not helpful.

Stephen Box: Yeah. A and I know for a lot of guys out there, this, this is a tough conversation, right? Because we hate asking for help for the most part, right? I mean, that's not every single guy out there.

Some guys are okay with asking for help, but for a lot of guys, it's a struggle, right? Because society has taught us not to ask for help. It's taught us to, to man up and just suck it up and just deal with it. Right? And so I, I wanna really emphasize for anybody out there that kind of feels [00:48:00] that way, the best coaches in the world have their own coaches.

Absolutely. We're too close to our own stuff to see it. Yeah. Right. The best athletes in the world get coached up every single day. Do you think that. Top players in the N F L don't know how to play football. Of course they do. They know their position inside and out, but yet every single day they have a coach sitting there working with them on their fundamentals.

Why? Because that coach standing five feet away can see things that you will never be able to see yourself. And that's why reaching out for help is so important.

Jodee Gibson: Yeah. And I was gonna say, and we can't see them because we've normalized them. They're simply a part of who we are, even though they're completely dysfunctional.

Right. And I'm not saying that we're dysfunctional. I'm saying we run patterns that don't serve us. Those patterns are from when we were five or when we were eight or however old [00:49:00] we were, that that pattern was created to keep us safe in that moment. However, now it's keeping us safe and we don't need to be safe.

What we need is to take the next step. Right. And the next step is outside of fear, but the, the fear that's present is this childhood fear. And so I think that it's spot on. And, and circling back to coaches Yes. Like, can you imagine if all of these gigantic teams didn't have coaches? Like imagine if an Olympic athlete didn't have a coach.

Yeah. Or it's like going to court and not having an attorney or like going someplace and like, it's, it's like a yin and a yang. Like hiring a coach and having a coach is one of the like most powerful gifts you can give to yourself. Yeah. And every great coach on the planet has a coach. There's people who have, multiple people might have a, a workout coach, a mindset coach, a an executive coach, a finance coach.

Right? Like they have multiple coaches. It's not just one person. Yeah. And so it's [00:50:00] about understanding like, who are you allowing in your life that's, that's helping you grow versus who are you allowing in your life that's keeping you stuck. Yeah.

Stephen Box: Yeah. I, I will tell you, I actually have a lot of different coaches, um, and people were always surprised.

When I tell them that as someone who has a certification, as an elite trainer, did I have someone else write my workouts for me? Yeah. And they're like, but why? I'm like, it's not a matter of me being able to do it. It's if I write my own workouts, I'm gonna put all the exercises I love, I'm gonna leave out all the ones I hate, even though I know that they're the most beneficial exercises for me.

Whereas if I have somebody else write it for me, they're not gonna, they're not gonna give into my biases. They're gonna put what's best for me into the program.

Jodee Gibson: That, and I think too, like circling back to like, we cannot if, like we cannot see the picture if we're in the [00:51:00] frame. Mm-hmm. Right? Like if I'm starring in the movie, I'm also not watching it.

Yeah. So I'm seeing it from my perspective. And so when you hire somebody that says, Hey, this is what I'm seeing from my side of the chair. This is what I'm seeing when I watch your movie. I know you're in the movie and you're the lead star, but you're not watching the movie. You have no idea what's going on around you cuz you're busy being you.

Yeah. You have no idea what the background looks like or what you look like through the lens cuz you're not watching it from that way. And so I think it's about understanding. We have to allow other people to see us. Yeah.

Stephen Box: And, and just to kind of put a bow on this as a completely different example, I, I was actually on a webinar yesterday, excuse me, we're just getting a little dry here.

Um, I was on this webinar yesterday that was talking about marketing and messaging and, and all those kind of things. And one of the things they talked about was where a lot of entrepreneurs [00:52:00] struggle when they're trying to write messaging to get people interested in their product is that they explain things from their own level of understanding, not the understanding of their audience.

Right. You know, because I can look at you and see the problems, right? And I can see the cause of the problems, and I can see the mistakes that you're making. All you know is that the results aren't there, right? So if you're out there trying to solve your own problem in that way, with no outside help, you are literally stuck in that lens versus when you can get outside of that lens, shift your perspective and start seeing it differently, whether that's working with a coach, whether that's reading a book, whatever the case is, whatever helps you get outside of that comfort zone and change your perspective, that's when you can start to see results.

As long as you're working from the same level of knowledge, you're stuck.

Jodee Gibson: Yeah. And, and I was [00:53:00] gonna share one final thing too, is Yes, and if you, if you be willing to fire your coach too, I share this in saying, if your coach is sitting there telling you what to do, that's not the coach for you. The coach that you're looking for is the coach that listens at that, it like most intense level, and then asks you one question, two question, three questions that leave you pondering that conversation for weeks.

Like that's what a coach does. A coach shows up as a flashlight and listens to everything. They, they follow you down the path around the journey through all the things, and you're carrying this flashlight and all of a sudden you light up this corner over here and you're like, Hey, talk to me about what's happening over here.

Yeah. People are usually like, wait, what? Like, I didn't even know I was there. I didn't wait. What is that? Right? Like, we didn't, we don't even realize what's there. And so I think it's about understanding when you allow people, if someone's telling you what to do mm-hmm. [00:54:00] They're literally, they're not helping you.

That doesn't help your brain. It doesn't help you grow, it doesn't do anything for you. When somebody asks you questions that allow you to self-discover what it is in your own life that's happening, that's creating this pattern, that's when things transform. That's when you grow. That's when your brain truly, like, if we want a nerd out for a second, that's when your, your brain becomes hijacked, right?

If we get into a little bit of neuroscience and like neuroplasticity, if you're just used to doing the same thing the same way every time. Every time, right? Like imagine whatever, whatever tooth, tooth, whatever hand you brush your teeth with, try brushing your teeth with the other hand tomorrow or tonight or whenever.

If you put makeup on, try using the other hand, right? Yeah. Whether you're driving, put your shoes on, put the other shoe on first, and not if you usually put your right one on, and then your left, put your left one on, and then your right. When you put your jacket on, if you put your, your right arm in first, and you Right.

Like do things backwards and feel how weird they [00:55:00] feel, right? Yeah. This is the same thing. And so it's about understanding. You want somebody that's gonna build new neural pathways. You want somebody that's gonna take you outside of your groove and not allow you to get in your own way, and they're gonna allow you to self-discover new patterns versus allowing you to wanna take their pattern, which their pattern is part of their map and not helpful.

Right. I would say good, good coaches ask questions.

Stephen Box: Absolutely. I, I believe in what, what I refer to as client-centered coaching, which is this idea and, and I know for a lot of people, this is a crazy concept, but when you come to me for coaching, there are two experts in the room, right? I'm an expert on the things you came to me for, but you are the expert on you.

Right. And if I'm asking you the questions that are helping you dive deeper and, and look at things, I might help you discover something you weren't aware of. But ultimately, [00:56:00] at the end of the day, you are the person who can understand that better than I can. You're the person who wants that light gets shined on it.

You can be like, oh, okay, now I know what to do if I'm just telling you what to do. Like you just said, I'm doing everything from my perspective. I'm using my roadmap, and that may not be the right path for

Jodee Gibson: you. Yeah, and I was gonna say, and that one thing that you unlock might be the smallest, tiniest belief that you are holding onto that changes everything.

It goes back to the conversation we were talking about when we started, right? The sailing, the sailing to Malibu, and that one degree, the, the one question that your coach asks you, it might uncover the smallest, tiniest detail and it unlocks every single thing that you've been holding back. Yeah, I share this.

I have a fun story. Um, I can share really quickly, maybe a minute or two. I had a client who was 25, 26 years old, I think, um, working at high [00:57:00] level, um, mortgage company making probably $250,000 a year and had this challenge he kept coming across, and I won't go into the whole story, but long story short, we did the se.

I did a session with him. I asked him one question and the question was, how old were you the first time you ran this pattern? And the phone went silent. And it stayed silent for probably two solid minutes. Minutes, which for our coach is a dream because I know when it's quiet, it means that they're processing.

Right? And he came back on the phone and he said, I was 11. He said, I was 11 years old and it was the day that I quit Little league. I quit playing baseball because my dad said to me, if you're not gonna play big, don't play at all. This kid was 25 years old, about to walk away from and quit his job making a quarter of a million dollars a year because he couldn't show up at the capacity that somebody else had an expectation for him.

And not that he was doing something wrong, he was doing [00:58:00] everything right. He didn, didn't wanna challenge authority, he was doing things right. He had found things in his team that didn't work, but he was willing to walk away from all of it because of this old belief. Yeah. And so I share that in saying oftentimes it's one tiny moment in life, and even when we go back to trauma and we talk about like what is trauma?

That one little moment was trauma for him and he was holding onto that. Yet he had normalized it and who knows how many times that belief had played interference in his life. But it came to this big moment and I look back now and I'm like, he still works there. He's probably making a little bit more money.

Right. But. What are the things that you've normalized and the stories and the beliefs that you, you're not even consciously aware of, that are running crazy interference and your, and on your, your goals and your outcomes. And as we shared earlier, it's not about your ability to get there. Yeah. It's about internal programming you have and the belief that you can or you can't.

Yeah. [00:59:00]

Stephen Box: Yeah. I'm a big believer that we can all get where we want to go. Some of us might have a longer path than others, right. Some of us might need to develop more skills. We might need to invest more time and into getting the resources that we need. So it might take you longer, but I think it's important for people to also understand that it's not a race.

Right. It's not, yeah. It's, it's do what's

Jodee Gibson: best for you always. And it's like, and understanding. Yeah. Believe. Believe in yourself. Yeah. Believe in your ability to get there.

Stephen Box: So Jodee, I really appreciate you, uh, you coming on and, and having this conversation today. I think you gave us a lot of insights, but if there is one thing that you really want people to leave with today, what would that be?

Jodee Gibson: Mm. I feel like I have one that I always share, but something else was just pinging for me. Okay. So gonna share both really quickly. The first one [01:00:00] is, it doesn't matter where you started. What matters is what you're willing to learn in order to heal truly. And what else just came up for me is you can honor your old story and release it at the same time.

Yeah. You don't have to stay in it. It happened. It's over. I don't care if it was yesterday or if it was 40 years ago. Yeah. You can honor it and release it at the same time. Yeah. It moves your word. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Box: And, and I'll just add, uh, to that and just say that until you release it, you can't move forward.

Jodee Gibson: Right. You'll just keep repeating the pattern. Yeah.

Stephen Box: So, awesome. Love it. Um, if you thank you so much Yeah. If, if you could just real quickly, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, if you, uh, could let them know how to do that.

Jodee Gibson: Absolutely. They can find me at my website, which is jodeegibson.com. [01:01:00] And Jodee is spelled j o d e e Gibson, g i b s o n.com.

You could also probably just Google me. Um, I also have a new book on Amazon called Healing Your Map. You could also toss that into Amazon and you'll find me there as well. Okay. Thank you

Stephen Box: friend. Absolutely. And we'll also throw a link to all that in the description, so if somebody gets a chance to write it down, they can uh, they can actually find that in the show notes as well.

Um, so again, thank you for coming on today, Jodee, and just wanna remind everyone that none of us are born Unshakable. We can all become Unshakable. Thank

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